RE: Value Plan Q4 2024 - Q1 2025 Bridge Proposal and Discussion

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RE: Value Plan Q4 2024 - Q1 2025 Bridge Proposal and Discussion

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deeanndmathews in #valueplan • 6 days ago

I'm going to keep posting this data because it is important ... actual data on where crypto is being adopted says the focus on Europe is not going to get Hive where it needs to go. Chainalysis has published the leaders in crypto adoption, and with the exception of Ukraine, central Europe just isn't on the list. This is the best data in the industry, and any plan asking for hundreds of thousands of dollars over and over needs to work with the data, not against it.

The 2024 Global Adoption Index: Central & Southern Asia and Oceania (CSAO) Region Leads the World in Terms of Global Cryptocurrency Adoption

The rally car may be showing to millions of people in Europe, but WE KNOW that is not the interested audience when it comes to crypto. Hive is only 24 cents in U.S. terms, and in Euro terms it is a bit lower. That's not enough to raise interest while Bitcoin is running wild.

Furthermore, I've read through the comments. There are things in here that would give any serious investor deep pause ... so, we're going to sink massive amounts of money on a car, and say, "Oh, we can't get data from the use of that money -- the pump may be because of the car, but we can't prove it." Any serious investor can go find out how that pump happened, and it's not the car. Not at all. There is not sufficient crypto interest in Europe to account for it, and besides: we can check exchange data and know better. At this point, we are running the risk of simply looking incompetent from the point of view of serious investors, because serious crypto investors compare our plans against world crypto data, and serious investors do not accept "We're spending money on things we CAN'T EVEN TRACK IN TERMS OF RESULTS, but hey: we got some attention from Europeans, although we can't track how much either, and although hard data says that's not a market we can convert users in on the very mass level we think we may be appealing to!"

Also this: this thing reeks of dumb prejudice. We already know where Hive itself has the most interest and adoption, and this data from Chainalysis has been out for a while ... but apparently, we intend to go begging to the European mass market because it is the European market instead of doubling down on what is actually working? Again: look at the data. It is clear where crypto projects should be working to get more attention.

The 2024 Global Adoption Index: Central & Southern Asia and Oceania (CSAO) Region Leads the World in Terms of Global Cryptocurrency Adoption

Every day we spend trying to impress Europe is another day other wiser projects use the real data to get ahead of Hive where people are looking for the solutions we are providing. India, Nigeria, and Indonesia, the top three countries in crypto adoption, account for markets of 2 billion people, and Latin America has a ton of representation in the top 20 as well ... so we know where A QUARTER OF ALL HUMANITY wants access to adopt crypto and is putting major action behind it. But we want to keep driving that rally car around because the European market matters so much more ... that's not just prejudice. That's dumb prejudice.

6 days ago in #valueplan by deeanndmathews

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lordbutterfly 6 days ago (edited)

"Oh, we can't get data from the use of that money -- the pump may be because of the car, but we can't prove it."

People can pause all they want but that is the absolute truth. Its not a type of marketing that can have measurable results in terms of price action. And no, you cannot use exchange data to prove either way. Wouldnt it be wonderful if we could assign a dollar value of Hive bought based on the car existence. You can speculate though and thats fun isnt it.

But thats not even the point. The car "does what its supposed to do." It could have never done anything else. If someone thinks theres better ways to spend the money, fine, there probably is, but that doesnt take away that the car has always done what it was supposed to. Maybe people had wrong expectations, that is probably true as well.

There is not sufficient crypto interest in Europe to account for it,

I mean come on. lol. This just reeks of "dumb prejudice". What are we, market leaders, weve saturated the market? Theres no European buyers that will satisfy our glorious multi trillion chain with millions of users. 😂
If you can onboard a pub full of people on a Saturday night thats significant. Claiming theres not enough crypto interest in Europe for Hive to exploit is just silly.

Valueplan isnt even tied to any specific region and funds are spent in all parts of the world. So Europe isnt even the main focus for VP.

Latin America has a ton of representation in the top 20 as well.

How much did we spend in Latin America? I would assume nothing since all we do is try and impress Europe.

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deeanndmathews 6 days ago

When you have that data out we're asking for, then we will know what you have spent and where, and what does have measurable results, and then we don't have to try to figure it out ourselves. As a crypto investor, I never want to read "We don't know if it's working, but let's just keep spending money on it anyway, even though good, hard data that says the 800 million we are trying to have mass market appeal with may not be the right 800 million based on regional data." I'm not even talking about Generally Agreed Accounting Principles (GAAP) type of financials yet ... I'm not even talking about up to the level of income statements, balance sheets, forms 990 ... cash method vs. accrual ... nope. I'm not even talking about what most people getting upwards of $1 million a year have to contend with. More like, "Here's how we spent the last quarter's money, here's what we learned, here's what RESULTS we're getting in terms of what events seem to be bringing in Hivers and from where, and here's where we're going to do more of what's working with the money we need next."

Now, we see what and where you prioritize just by reading your proposals and strategy post. What goes first? What's the first of the first seven bullet points in your strategy post? There's two rally cars up there. Where was the last rally car being driven, primarily, where will the next one be driven, and about the next three -- where are those activities more likely to be located? Now, Krolestwo is much lower, community wells are much lower -- so then, what are we supposed to conclude from the order of how all that is written down about VP's priorities?

Let's go back to the Sept. 22 proposal -- what's the photo showing, @lordbutterfly? You don't have to wrack your brain -- here you go.

https://peakd.com/valueplan/@valueplan/value-plan-q4-proposal-general-information

Only two regions mentioned -- what are they and where are they? Again, you don't have to wrack your brain. We can all read. Ghana, where VP has done some of its best work, gets a photo and a mention in a tiny caption, two-thirds of the way down. AGAIN, we can see with our own eyes that although Hive is doing what governments and NGOs cannot, and that is among the most powerful potential stories on the planet for crypto, that's not at all a main concern just from the layout of the proposal. So, anyone who can read and understands order of operations is going to know.

Let's go back a bit more -- since VP did not present a half year report in 2024, let's go back to Q3!

https://peakd.com/valueplan/@valueplan/value-plan-half-year-review

Go in there and add up what was spent driving that car around versus EVERYTHING ELSE ... and then come back and tell us again how VP can't show even if Hive goes to 100x how all that expenditure helped out Hive. We can, however, tell that the last pump CERTAINLY didn't come from it -- that's called checking over with our friends on Upbit and thereabouts and understanding the entire crypto cycle for altcoins to know that. REMEMBER: Valueplan wants "quality people":

What do we mean when we speak of quality of the audience? We recognize that Hive is not the right solution for everyone. It is best for individuals who are already financially stable, literate, have an interest in technology, have a business perhaps, and are able to positively contribute to the ecosystem.

I'm one of those, living in the No. 4 country in the world for crypto adoption and the No. 1 richest, and I'm telling you: there's no way, given the best crypto data in the English-speaking world about crypto adoption, that anyone like me who can read and make decisions based on hard data is going to look at VP and then look at global crypto data and say, "Wow -- they are on top of who is doing the darn thing in the crypto world -- let's put another $1M there in 2025!" See for yourself.

https://www.chainalysis.com/blog/2024-global-crypto-adoption-index/#top-countries

Now, VP can fix this. Prioritizing what we see is working can help. Prioritizing what is working in the world -- India, Nigeria (success in Ghana can be leveraged there), Indonesia, the U.S. and Vietnam are your top five countries in the world for crypto adoption, and the next 15 are in the data -- can help. Now if VP has data that says cars and conferences in countries primarily outside the top 20 are pulling people in, great -- put it out there. Chainalysis doesn't know everything -- maybe VP is beating the odds! For that matter, if VP has data about whatever is working, put it forth and be praised! Then double down on what you know is getting VP and Hive good results, and be praised and ask for even more money next time after trimming out everything you cannot show good results for. Do that and nobody has a problem, @lordbutterfly.

But you know, investors read comments as well as proposals and also look back in the VP main page. Is there a half-year report for 2024? No. Are there people asking and asking and asking for transparency all over the place? Yes. Is it forthcoming? No. Are you in comments letting everyone know that at least some things the community is paying for don't even have measurable results? Yes. Does a simple read of where the money is going and how the proposals are organized say VP is not prioritizing the right places on earth, in light of global data? Yes. This is not sour grapes -- as the type of "quality people" VP said in September that it thinks are best, I don't mind if VP gets $105K to finish this year or $1 million next as long as we can all see Hive getting good results from it and clear, accountable stewardship. That's not too much to ask for a project getting a $1M run rate a year, is it?

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2 votes

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lordbutterfly 6 days ago

You dumped a lot of text, went all over the place, which pretty much obfuscated your response to the factual statement I made about certain types of marketing not being able to have measurable results in Hive price action.... here it is...

Are you in comments letting everyone know that at least some things the community is paying for don't even have measurable results?

I am in the comments letting people know that. That is something that people should have known already and those that approved the car should have been aware of it.

"Wow -- they are on top of who is doing the darn thing in the crypto world -- let's put another $1M there in 2025!"

And this is just speculation again. Again dodging the made points.

VP mostly deals with incoming requests for funding. Some of us in VP have our ideas on what should be tried but there is no overarching strategy or active effort to develop it. People are stretched as it is, nobody wants to work for free, you cant find people to even write a single post for Hive, do anything really, without pay, so its basically on a handful of people that were stupid enough to not get paid carry all of the burden.

If there is no valid funding requests from US or India, or Ukraine, whatever, then there will not be VP expenditure there.

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deeanndmathews 6 days ago

I'll keep it short then and make it easy: do things that are measurable, leave the rest alone, and give solid accounting for what you do. Your workload would be less, and you would have fewer people asking ten thousand questions and bringing in their own data to show why what you are doing doesn't seem to be working. VP is running $1M per year on a project whose market cap is under $120 million. That needs to be justified. If I went to the store for you for $10, you are getting a receipt and change and an explanation if something is out of the expected norm. VP needs to come up to that basic standard.

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1 vote

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lordbutterfly 6 days ago

do things that are measurable, leave the rest alone, and give solid accounting for what you do.

I do only do things that are measurable. Car was something that was a thing before I was added into VP and it was clear from first moment what kind of marketing that is.
Vibes is easily measurable. Conference im doing as well. Hivefest is clear as well. The social media managers are all straight forward with measurable results.

asking ten thousand questions

People have complaints which are valid and then you have attacks, trolling and threatening. Those that ask specific questions will have them answered, those that start accusing me personally of illegal activity will get a clear treatment.

If I went to the store for you for $10, you are getting a receipt and change and an explanation if something is out of the expected norm.

Ask specific explanations and ill give them. If you go broad and cover a 100 things I cannot give you those answers. VP isnt a structured system. Its simply responding to request for funding based on judgement of project managers.
I did not approve the car so you would have to ask who did and what the thought process was.

Me you can ask about Hivefest, Vibes, Social managers and the upcoming conference and how VSC is tied to it.
I did not found VP, I joined because I was asked to volunteer and help with things. I refused a few times precisely because I didnt want to deal with stuff like this here.
If you want a structured system with a somewhat corporate structure then ask for VP managers to get paid.

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deeanndmathews 5 days ago

If you want a structured system with a somewhat corporate structure then ask for VP managers to get paid.

No, @lordbutterfly ... as someone who works in the real world with a volunteer team to manage community assets worth more than Hive's present market cap, just NO. Not being paid cannot be the reason. It is terrifying to consider it would even be offered as a justification for not having structure in place. I can understand being overworked and not paid and frustrated ... been there, done that too ... but a lack of structure is what gets us to these situations as you have to deal with now. Since you are not the founder of VP, I can accept that the lack of structure is not your doing -- but since you are a noted leader, it is your responsibility now with your colleagues. You have some of Hive's brightest minds -- @blocktrades used to run the ONLY exchange I trusted my Steem and my Hive to, and frankly, nothing has been quite as good since -- so, I know you have team members who understand what is required. Blocktrades still keeps us up on his activities regularly, and it is something that is greatly appreciated.

I personally think that Vibes and HiveFest are wonderful programs ... in the case of Vibes I can see the growth and it is fairly easy to track it. I would love to see that presented in proposals so we can all see the growth. Hivefest: same thing. Social managers I would love to know more about, and again: I would love to see those measureables. I am telling you straight up, as someone who approves a run rate bigger than VP's ask every month: when proposals begin to include the measureables and the good results up front so people can see, a lot of the stress you have will go away. I'm dropping you a big hint on better structure: put the measureables up front, and leave the rest alone for a while. Not everyone is going to like all of the measurables -- somehow, community wells seem to be highly controversial with some -- but that's something anyone can confirm is working and can be leveraged for greater exposure to Hive -- and in fact, the documentary is a form of publicity and leverage. KRK -- again, measurable, clearly getting things done.

Again, I don't have a problem with VP getting $105K more and $1M more next year, as long as we get to see the money being spent well, with good measurables. There are a lot of things VP does that are magnificent, and I would love to see them continue. A lot of us just need to see better accounting and transparency, and some sense of what VP is doing aligning with best global data on crypto adoption. I'm sure that there are "quality people" from India, Nigeria, and Indonesia who would be delighted to work with VP once the transparency issues are cleared up -- in fact I saw @sanjeevm on the VP strategy post, and @guiltyparties has already confirmed India as an area of work. I do not know as many members of the Nigerian community on Hive as I do the Ghanaian because @collinz and @mcsamm stand out, but I do know one of Indonesia's outstanding representatives: @macchiata. Believe it or not, using the data on where to promote will make your life easier -- that's two billion people to work with who want what Hive offers. I of course am from country No. 4, where there are 50M-100M crypto users out of a population of 330M, so many that they may have tipped the election toward Mr. Trump. Paying attention to those top 4 -- or, anywhere feasible in the top 20 -- will give VP success after success after success, and accounting for steady success is a lot more fun.

But, there is no way around the questions about where the funds are going and have gone until the questions are answered. Not everyone will be satisfied, but a step toward what was done in 2023 with both a half-year and closing year report would be a good start. Another good start: put out good answers for at least Q4 this year before you ask for more Q1 money. And, if there are things that have gone wrong, that transparency will give VP room to say, if necessary, "There was an irregularity here. We are putting it out with our explanation BEFORE YOU HAVE TO ASK, and here is how we are resolving it and working to avoid similar situations in future."

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1 vote

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lordbutterfly 5 days ago (edited)

it is your responsibility now with your colleagues.

Nope. VP deals with incoming requests for funding from the community. Developing any broader strategy is not in the description nor is in the description who has what title and what responsibility beyond key holders.
It can happen but its not in "job" description.

Im responsible for the stuff I receive funding for and I deliver on that.
You do not get to tell anyone what responsibility they should have. You do not get to add more work on top of whats being done. And im not trying to be mean here.

Not being paid cannot be the reason.

It is absolutely the reason. All the basics are very much covered but beyond that, what you are definitely hinting at, will not be done. We each jump in with what we have time for. There is no work allocation based on specific regions or specific job descriptions or specific marketing type. Its very much loose in that department. Sure, 1 person will do more of some stuff. For example Crim with exchanges but thats simply because how it is.

a lot of the stress you have will go away

I have no stress at all. Theres a certain type of people I have a problem with but thats a recurring problem. lol

The rest of it ....

Again youre piling on expectations. The community comes to VP with funding requests. If there is US based funding requests, fine. If there is Indian (like the hackathon, fine as well.
Do not ask us to develop a marketing strategy for Hive.
I have my own personal strategy and approach that im working on that differs from current strategies but is based on my own initiative for my side of projects. VP cannot be asked to do anything more than respond to funding requests from the community. It may deliver more, but it cannot be asked more.

But, there is no way around the questions about where the funds are going and have gone until the questions are answered.

Again. What funding? If wer discussing things here then be specific as to what funding you want to know about. I can deliver an answer for my side. I do not deal with VZ stuff or India, etc.

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deeanndmathews 5 days ago

So, let me see if I understand ... VP is actually leaderless, and you are each doing what you are best at, and none of you takes responsibility for what the others do? I've seen models like this. Occupy Wall Street worked like this for a while. Of course, no idea what their run rate was because they didn't have a DHF ... but also, they didn't last all that long, either ... that's a tough model to sustain. Black Lives Matter Global Foundation tried that model as well ... about $90 million worth ... and its prominent people are likely to be hounded for the rest of their lives while the foundation has now become a byword and epithet for the right wing to shut down anything good that could have been done in that whole movement.

Now, as a practical matter ... when you all put together a proposal, can you each write down what you know about so the unified presentation has it all? For example, Vibes: what was spent where, and results achieved. Whoever does the car: maybe they can share their data. If each of you does that, the questions are answered, because it should sum to whatever VP asked for, and each of you knows how well things worked that you did. I do agree with you that Vibes, for example, is quite measureable -- can you each write that down for the proposals? Again, in 2023, there's a half-year and quantitative review ... I know VP can, actually, so I'm not seeing why it is such a problem. You could even just use headers in each proposal, and everyone puts their stuff under their portion. That way, people could understand how it works and who is responsible for what, and make better informed decisions.

One more practical matter ... I understand human beings hate being told "no," but do understand: VP is being told no every time one more person reads the increasing volume of posts against it and votes the Return Proposal. Human nature being what it is, if the Return Proposal does not have sufficient power to enact the NO, that NO eventually will rise to a pitch with the other unhappiness around Hive and its leadership in the crypto world that the NO will damage the chain's reputation. That will counter pro-adoption measures, profoundly, and I would think all of us want to avoid that.

Again, I'm not talking about VP doing Generally Accepted Accounting Principals (GAAP) type of accounting. Can VP get back to half-year and quantitative reviews, though? Can each of you just write down what you are responsible for and explain the structure that you do have so we know to ask you about Vibes and not about the car, and so we ask the person who takes care of the car about the car and not about Hivefest -- do you see what I am getting at?

I have been near the edge of burnout myself as a volunteer ... on a human level I can certainly understand the need to back up from that edge. Just understand, though ... "the work cannot be optimal, but hand us another $105K anyway, and then next year ..." OK. If that's the case, that's the case. I accept that your perspective is your perspective, and I appreciate your sharing so that I can have more reasonable expectations. I have shared what I would need to see to support VP -- see the previous paragraph for the simplest iteration -- as well.

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1 vote

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lordbutterfly 5 days ago (edited)

Just to go into it a bit more as I maybe didnt clarify it best in prior comment.

No single person will do all of the specific type of work, because the work load would be extremely high. So for example, wer all doing outreach for certain things. Crim does outreach for stuff she does. I do outreach for things i do. GP does it. Crim talks to exchanges. Ill be talking to exchanges in regards to a specific project here. GP will talk to some conferences, ill talk to others. Crim will go to some conferences, im going now to one. So its kinda who can grab what.

When I say that the structure you hint at is not possible, its precisely because there is no pay and its not a real job. Its voluntary work thats extremely wide in scope, with an extremely limited number of people doing it, and no one can be asked (required) to do anything that they do not volunteer for. They will try their best to do so if asked, though.

Time available and burnout is a real thing and beyond trying to cover all the needs this chain has, maintaining burnout is a must. So you simply cannot allocate work in a way that would be optimal. That is the structure im talking about. And again because of this, I can only speak for how I see things. I cannot guarantee others share my view.

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guiltyparties 6 days ago

The car is not the central issue of this post or of 2025. Its Monaco race is already pre-paid as we had it in fiat and the others are not scheduled at all yet.

I remember your input about India before. We are pushing strong into India, there is no disagreement with you there at all. It is known that India is excellent for Hive and people are welcoming to it and to crypto in general.

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18 votes

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deeanndmathews 6 days ago

I am glad to know the others are not scheduled at all ... because maybe we can stop doing what is not working to impress people who are not interested. That's the point. And, I'm not putting the data out just for you to read. I'm putting it out so EVERYBODY can read it and reflect on all the money ValuePlan has already spent versus what SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE, according to the data. You have a colleague talking about the pump may be connected to the car -- have you spoken with said colleague about that, in the face of data any investor can find and reach the conclusion that "Gee... how have they ALREADY spent millions if that is the thinking?"

The point is simple. We already know Sucre State, Venezuela, is leading the world in adopting Hive. If I'm voting for VP to get more, I want to see that prioritized and leveraged to get Hive noticed in top-20 countries in crypto adoption in Latin America. We already know Ghana and Nigeria are both in West Africa -- I want to see us leveraging the life-saving work Hive is doing to get marketing done in the No. 2 country IN THE WORLD for crypto adoption. And since we have @krolestwo, and we KNOW KRK is putting work in, let's elevate THEM and projects like THEM for Europe, and particularly Eastern Europe, which is coming on STRONG.

Despite war and regulatory questions, crypto adoption grows in Eastern Europe driven by institutions and DeFi activity

I don't even see an honorable mention of what ValuePlan is doing in India -- the No. 1 country for crypto adoption IN THE WORLD. I have the proposal open in front of me -- there's not even a mention of it.

And here is the other point: VP does not present hard data of what was spent where, and any hint to "this is where we are getting measurable results," so the only thing possible is to look at the proposals and then at global data and say: "Here is the global trend ... so unless VP has data to the contrary, there's just no way that Hive is getting the most bang for the bucks." We keep asking for that data from VP, @guiltyparties. I've read through the comments and I see there may be something on the way, but hey: I spend my off-Hive life as an investor and real-world community asset manager looking at what people tell me they are doing and comparing it to what COLD, HARD DATA says. The best crypto data available in the English-speaking world is saying CLEARLY: VP's proposals are not aligned with best practices for taking advantage of crypto adoption. VP has not presented the data on its own work to show it is exceptional and actually beating the trends, so what are we supposed to conclude here?

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4 votes

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guiltyparties 6 days ago

I don't have much of anything to really say because I mostly agree with you. The reason that India isn't mentioned in this proposal is because there's a hiveio post that's about to come out detailing its successes. It's a series of projects that don't all fall into this quarter and are ongoing beyond its range. The post is waiting on just one deliverable this week so we can really communicate the success.

Please take a look at the strategy post before this one if you haven't. Your input would help there.

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deeanndmathews 6 days ago

LISTEN ... I don't have any piece of those millions in hand to go do work Hive has funded VP to go do. I will go look at the strategy post, but understand: VP needs to account for the fact that it has been well-funded to have a proper strategy together at this point, and should long ago have presented clear accounting for what it is doing. And, what do you expect ANYONE to do to help VP strategically when you have colleagues out here telling folks "Well, the pump might have had to do with this or that, but we can't track it and say that it's not working, so let's keep doing it?" And furthermore, @guiltyparties, you've had that Chainalysis data since the last time there was a proposal. You've acknowledged that. Do I see ANY EVIDENCE that said data was used in the preparation of THIS PROPOSAL, asking for more money? No. Now, you all choose what you want to put out to ask for votes and money -- this is where we decide whether to vote for that. How many people do you think know there is a strategy post and have time to read that and say "Well, it isn't in the proposal, but ... ?"

I will go look at that post, @guiltyparties. But you already have my input, and the best data in the world that I could find. You all at VP already can know quite a lot of what you need to do moving forward, and you have been asked again, and again, and again that if VP is beating the models and getting results, then just show that!

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4 votes

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deeanndmathews 6 days ago

Further thought ... remember, @guiltyparties, you ASKED ME to go look at that post ... but before I get into those comments and tell this chain what I think, given that you have colleagues out here talking about "Even if Hive goes to 100x, we'll never be able to really say if the car did or didn't contribute," do you NOT understand that if that is true of the TOP ITEM, then everything else VP wants money for is DEEPLY SUSPECT? Do you understand that blows everything but what there are tangible real-world results on right out of the water?

If you mostly agree with me, let me give you my best suggestion: VP needs to put its real-world successes that people can see up front and double down on them, get some real accounting out here, and get on point among its members about what to record on the blockchain about whether anything it is doing is a good use of millions of dollars. On this very page, you have people running their fingers and making what would be FATAL ERRORS of public communication for a going concern without good accounting in the real world. I know the trajectory of some of the United States' most storied business collapses, and Jeff Skilling's out-of-pocket response to an analyst asking for better data is one of the best-known beginnings of the end because it destroyed any further probability of Mr. Skilling's company getting the benefit of the doubt.

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4 votes