Is Flagging Really The Solution We Need....?

in #hf216 years ago

It's that time again: hardfork!! And folks are talking about it. Which is a good thing in an eco-system claiming to be decentralised. This is not an overview of HF21, there are plenty of posts out there. What I am curious about — and also highly concerned about — is the idea that a culture of flagging/downvoting will help solve current problems. This is a long one, so feel free to move on, or lean in and work with me here...


Witch-hunt hysteria in Salem... could excessive and aggressive flagging/downvoting lead to this kind of fervour? Image source


Preface

I am not a developer or a technical person. I am not an investor. I have no financial interests in any dApps, although I am interested in many of them, and would like to see them flourish. I am not a curator (per se), but as a (written) content creator I am the beneficiary of their work, and secondary benefit through following certain curation trails, and manual voting. I also delegate SP to services such as Smartvote, Steem Basic Income, TipU, Smartsteem, and OCDB, for which there are small returns.

I'm going to reference a few posts here, mainly because I have engaged in them somewhat, shared some thoughts, but also because they have inspired my contemplations on my discomfort and concern about the mechanism of flagging/downvoting.

Separate downvoting pool

One of the proposals for HF21 is a separate 'pool' for the purposes of downvoting so that users can use this function more without draining RC which is better used for voting and posting/commenting. A good "normietalk" explanation of all this can be found in @justineh's summary of proposed HF21 here. Not sure if I need to reference the official post from @steemitblog about the HF21 proposal, but here it is if you haven't read it.

There is more to this hardfork than a downvoting pool, so I'd invite you to familiarise yourself with the details and rationale behind the proposals. Remember: you vote for witnesses, and they either accept the proposal, or don't.

Generative behaviour

So I want to look at this from a more philosophical, sociological, and cultural background.

One of the interesting things I find with the phenomenon of social media is how it affects our dopamine levels. This is how Fakebook (for example) has been such a global whirlwind. Now here comes Steem which adds a $ value to the dopamine-releasing 'Like' button, and all of a sudden you add in a level of complexity which triggers something deeply primal in humans.

We want more.

More 'Likes', more upvotes, more tokens... And in order to get more, we need to enagage more, post more, comment more, grease the wheels and network in chat-rooms more. This is nothing new; we've been doing this since we were swinging on vines in the jungle. It's just that it's happening in a virtual space, with people from different cultures, races, countries, and creeds, all gathered together in the same space in this electronic eco-system we call the Steem blockchain.

Some folks who are really good at computers, and coding, and whatnot started to 'game the system' and create ways (usually involving bots) to get more and more of the rewards pool, which drains the amount available to everyone else. Others post prolifically, spewing forth content that isn't really read or cared about, but somehow is able to attract massive upvotes and also take what some say is an unfair share of the pool. This too, I'm told, involves bidbots and promotion.

So the proposals for HF21 are trying to mitigate these effects.

Change management

There are two ways of changing behaviours: essentially, positive-reinforcement of desired behaviours, or negative-reinforcement of undesired behaviours. This is used in psychology, behaviour change/management systems, dog training, horse training.... basically everywhere. Don't think that advertising, sales, or marketing doesn't involve one, both, or a mix of these either...

This 'curve' that everyone's talking about, and the change to a 50/50 split between creators and curators is what I would describe as a way to reward a behavioural change in a positive manner. While I have my own reservations, I think the way @clayboyn put it in this post makes a convincing argument for this move.

If I understand the idea correctly, by rewarding curation, we will lead to better quality content overall. This may take some time, but those who propose and back this feel it will work.

I have no idea whether this will work, honestly. BUT, I do feel that positive-reinforcement is generally more effective, albeit slower. My only evidence for this is I have seen this consistently doing this kind of work with people, dogs, and horses. That doesn't mean it doesn't have its flaws, but as I said: generally, and over time you have success. I'm currently using these kinds of approaches working with an intellectually-disabled man with some deeply-entrenched patterns of behaviour. It does work, and it is effective.

Rewarding punishment

Flagging or downvoting on the other hand is a type of negative-reinforcement. If I create a shitpost, then the purpose of the downvote is to prevent me from receiving as much as the reward pool as possible. The 'value' of our downvote — just like our upvote — is dependent on how much stake we have (SP). If I choose to flag a post that is currently estimated to receive 12.00 STU on payout, I'd probably be lucky to reduce it by 0.01 STU, based on my staked SP.

I'm not going to go into the math of all this; that's not the purpose of my contemplation and enquiry: What is the social/cultural effects?

Well, if you don't know about the 'Flag Wars' between some of the larger whales and those in their wake, then you've been lurking somewhere safe. Downvoting is meant to provide the checks-and-balances to upvote abuse, but unfortunately can also be abused. It leads to animosity, and general bad vibes, and leads into retaliation.

From the examples I've seen, it appears to become a personal grudge match, and looks like childish behaviour. I'd even go so far as to say it's toxic. And I'm sure no one really even remembers how these feuds have started in the first place... kinda like wars and conflicts between nations, right?!?

Aside from these extreme examples, what does it mean to downvote a post? It is basically saying, "you don't deserve to be rewarded for what you've created and published on the blockchain." And I'm sure the creator of that post would scratch their heads wondering what they've done to deserve it. Go to the Steemcleaners or Buildawhale Discord servers, and you'll regularly see people asking why they've been put on a blacklist. Some (maybe most, I haven't got the stats) genuinely don't understand why their post has been flagged as spam or a shitpost.

And here is where I think using negative reinforcement in this context is dangerous — because who is the ultimate judge of quality?

A recent example, which I mentioned in @tarazkp's article about this issue gives me at least something to reflect on. I wasn't flagged, but a curator informed me a post was "not original content" — which I can say absolutely it is. I won't harp on about it, as it is no big deal; curators are choosing content to curate based upon their audiences, their own topics of interest, and so on. But what this highlighted to me was the incredibly subjective nature of curation.

To paraphrase an old aphorism, "one person's trash is another's treasure."

I personally am not interested in reading posts about your latest Drug Wars battle, or what card you just won in Splinterlands, or even how many steps you walked today.

But there are people on Steem, who do find that interesting.

In the same way that I'm interested in reading about peoples' personal journeys of personal and/or spiritual development, their trials and tribulations meandering through the maze of life, or seeing their latest sketch, painting, or listening to their latest music, others may not like that kind of content.

Who am I to flag your Actifit post? And who are you to flag my translation and interpretation of a 3500 year old ancient philosophical text?

Do you see the problem here? Who decides what is quality content?

If we begin to actively encourage downvoting, what we're doing is actively encouraging behaviour that is limiting in order to limit and negatively-reinforce an undesired behaviour... which may not be undesirable to many others.

If we take the positive-reinforcement approach, our focus goes more towards rewarding what we think adds value... rather than punishing those whom we think don't.

Energy flows where attention goes

We've all heard of this idea in some way or another.

What are the social and cultural consequences of bringing more energy/attention to negative, punishing behaviour?

How do we differ from centralised systems 'out there' who use this kind of approach to essentially 'divide and conquer', to belittle and demean others?

Right now, people are being banned from the mainstream platforms because they are expressing opinions that are unpopular. What happens if those people start getting downvoted here? Or worse, they start aggressively downvoting others who express opinions different to theirs?

I recognise this is an idealistic viewpoint... but we also need to consider 'ideals' in some form as we build something new here. And I'm not convinced mathematics and code is going to solve all our concerns. We have to have these conversations — and we are, which we need to give ourselves (as a community) credit for.

I would rather we looked towards solutions that involve more emphasis on 'positive-reinforcement'; and maybe the 50/50 reward split is a step in that direction, I don't know. It feels like it, but I don't have any evidence to back that belief up.

Direction......?

In a recent post, @whatsup made some very good points that the debate at present comes down to nobody seems to agree on what the 'grand vision' of Steem is. I think it's a great question to ask at this point.... "what is the big picture?"

This line of thinking for me is entangled in the idea that there really could be something for everyone here.

You like games?

You like dApps?

You like photography, or art, or music?

You like reading and writing blogs?

Political content?

Cryptocurrency news?

It could all co-exist here (and this is maybe where SMT/Communities and SCOT/Tribes come into play)... I see no reason why it cannot. We just need to come up with the how.

With a more generative approach, we — as individual users — reward content that we think is awesome, and simply don't reward what we think isn't.

If you feel that is too passive an approach... well, maybe be more active in how you wield your stake: vote greater percentages, stop depending on automated curation trails, more manual voting, etc.

But if we become a culture of downvoting, then we start to judge other tribes' content as inferior to ours...

"Well I think long-winded opinion blogs (like this) are more important and deserve a greater share of the reward pool, so I'll flag any posts of food-photos!"

We begin to think like: my creation is better than yours, so I'll do what I can to minimise your share of the pool.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

Can you get a sense of the nastiness of this approach?

It starts to turn into 'witch-hunt hysteria' (just look at the 'Flag Wars' as an example... who really wants to invest or have stake in an eco-system which is basically at war?!)

I feel quite uncomfortable and hesitant about promoting a culture of downvoting. That doesn't mean that I think the mechanism shouldn't exist; just that we should maybe want to be more cautious and sparing of how we wield that stick/stake (.... see what I did there...? 😉).

To quote Uncle Ben, "with great power comes great responsibility."

There is a reason our stake is called Steem Power. Whether used to reward or punish, use it wisely.

What do you think?

If you've gotten this far, thanks for taking the time to read it.

I've set up a discussion thread on the palnet forum for more directed conversation; also, feel free to continue the conversation in the comments here....

Here's to Steem continuing to be a thriving, sustainable, and rewarding blockchain community!! 🍻🥂



signature gif v3.gif

bannerCREATE YOUR OWN @REVIEWME PROFILE TO START EARNING CREDIBILITY STARS FROM THE COMMUNITY!
CREATING YOUR PROFILE IS EASY! JUST FOLLOW THE STEPS HERE ☜(ˆ▿ˆc)


Member of the SmartVote community

Sort:  

Hi, thanks for the post! I am undecided on the topic, so I appreciate reading a variety of perspectives.

Personally, for some of the same reasons that you allude to, I'm not convinced that having downvotes at all is better than the alternative. There are trade-offs to be sure, but as far as I know, no one has demonstrated that one set of abuses is better than the other, either empirically or experimentally, so it's all assumption and conjecture.

I included a link to your post in my recent article, Science and technology micro-summaries for June 23, 2019, and set a beneficiary setting so that you'll receive 5% of the rewards from that post.

Thanks for the comments. I think given some of the responses in this post, we can see precisely the kind of behaviour that is making the notion of downvoting problematic.

I wanted to pop this is the original post, as it was in the back of my mind whilst thinking about this whole issue, and that is the episode of The Orville, "Majority Rule". This show is a Star Trek satire (although nowhere near as funny as Galaxy Quest). But this episode is at the same time a great example of how Sci-Fi holds a 'dark mirror' up to society and says, "do you see what you are?"

I'd love to see a discussion happening on the palnet forum here, so come on over...

Here's an overview, which is quite good and funny.

I agree with the idea that downvoting just seems nasty and mean. I have had a few posts downvoted, and I've scoured them looking for the offensive thing I might have said or the egregious grammatical errors or flawed logic, and I've always come to the conclusion that the downvoter just didn't like what I'd written or drawn. (As an amateur artist, I like to have fun making pictures, but my art isn't slick or professional. That bugs some people who, apparently, feel I shouldn't post "bad" art---even when I think it's fun or funny...)

Personally, I'm not interested in a lot of stuff that I see on Steemit, but I just figure, "It's not meant for me." But, if a person (a nasty person) is given FREE downvotes every day, what's to stop them from just going around and being awful? Downvoting every sports post they see, if they don't like sports, or downvoting every post just because it's written in a language they can't read? What's to stop them from deciding that their opinion is the ONLY one that should be expressed on this platform? We trade a Facebook or YouTube algorithm for a "mob-rules" community, and any minority taste or opinion will be driven away. (Which is shitty, if you ask me.)

A downvote pool seems, to me, like it's going to empower people to be more mean and nasty, and (at the extreme) cause the community to splinter into warring tribes.

I'm fundamentally against downvoting. If I'm not interested in something or I don't like a post, I don't reward it with an upvote, but who am I to say that someone else's interests or artistic efforts or life experiences (which they felt strongly enough about to share) don't belong? (Plagiarism is a different issue, and coming from an academic background, I'm thoroughly against stealing other people's work without giving proper credit---but I still probably wouldn't downvote even if I caught someone red-handed... But I'm not an enforcer, by nature. I like to play, not punish.)

My two cents...

Posted using Partiko Android

I used to lecture at a tertiary level, so I'm totally on-board with the issue of plagiarism. There was never a case where the plagiarism was intended, and once a student was told of their error and how to prevent it, they never do it again.

Some actions just have a nasty edge to them. Downvoting is one such action.

Disagreeing with someone is fine; that becomes a source of engagement, debate, and conversation (although that can deteriorate too).

If you don't like something that someone posted.... move on. Stop following them. Mute them. You don't have to engage with someone/something you don't like.

'd love to see a discussion happening on the palnet forum here, so come on over...

The downvote pool is what concerns me the most too. I already see a bot that follows a user I follow around, flagging anything they post and with a comment which says that they will also flag anyone who interacts on their posts and their posts are certainly worth interacting on. They have the support of big accounts to counteract that flag, but I don't, so I'm not in a position to be risking picking up this bot myself. What happens when we give it 2.5 extra free upvotes a day?

The problem with those supporting the punishment approach is that they don't necessarily realise the experience of being on the receiving end when you've done nothing, but have a different opinion or belief. These current downvote wars and bots aren't trying to put the trending page right, they're on their own rampage and this proposal will give them more ammunition.

Posted using Partiko Android

Hey... thanks for your comment.

And case in point in what you're saying below 👇🏼

And you made another good point:

"they don't necessarily realise the experience of being on the receiving end when you've done nothing, but have a different opinion or belief."

I would consider it courtesy if I was at least also given an explanation for the reason for the downvote. I've had a couple of posts flagged by someone (maybe its a bot), they had no impact on my reward because the flagging account was so low. But I still want to know the reason. Did I do something wrong, or were they just being an indignant ass that didn't like what I wrote?

'd love to see a discussion happening on the palnet forum here, so come on over...

The case in point is the exact one I was talking about.

Are your downvotes from camillesteemer? That seems to be an account which must randomly downvotes anyone and everyone.

VC, I like the positive attitude you've taken towards this. Perhaps you could take the bot to Taraz's post on the downvote pool and leave this demonstration there.

Posted using Partiko Android

It is through my experience that I have come to suspect that censorship you note is the actual purpose of the downvote pool. First, it's no secret that Bernie is doing this, and no rational person expects him to NOT do more of it when he has a pool of free flags to fly. He's probably chortling and rubbing his greedy mitts in anticipation. I actually think it's where most of his enjoyment in life comes from, his ability to flag and repress others.

Second, there are several accounts that don't do anything but flag, obviously censors, and this will increase their activity, as well as be likely to generate more such accounts due to the increase in impact that will be availed.

Third, as you note, it isn't the lack of VP that keeps you from flagging, it's the threat of retaliation. The proponents of the downvote pool have used every trick in the book, but mostly just ignoring it, to prevent this topic from being discussed.

Lastly, the fact that proponents of the downvote pool don't address this substantively is telling. It's no secret that censorship is ongoing here through flagging, and that increasing that will happen without any doubt at all when the downvote pool is deployed, but very little discussion of that fact is undertaken by those proposing it.

This indicates to me that a lot of the rhetoric is disingenuous, and that, just as in politics, it should be disregarded and examination of actions provide our considerations instead. It's quite possible that the incessant flagging I experience, which I currently actually appreciate, as it often proves my points better than my words ever could, could so reduce my ability to engage with folks to the degree that I won't bother anymore. The threat Bernie now appends to his bot's comment has reduced engagement, and were he availed of an immense source of free VP with which to flag (the 25% is based on the SP of the flagging account, and he has immense SP) he'd probably be able to completely prevent any discussion in which I tried to take part.

I think this is the purpose of the downvote pool in reality. EIP is going to reduce by at least half rewards for content creators and allow whales to extract that too. They already centralize ~90% of rewards, and this will raise their share to ~95%. I'll run around and point that out, and unless I can be censored, the folks that grasp what has been done with EIP are going to act to change it, and probably go farther than just the 5% increase in whale income it creates.

I'm not saying this downvote pool is aimed at me personally, but I'm not alone in being willing to speak my mind and rational enough to grasp the actual affects of code on Steem society.

Personally, I'm convinced that EIP will be the final blow for Steem, and within three months the platform will be effectively looted and abandoned, so doubt that the downvote pool will be particularly useful, except to Bernie, who gets his only joy in life from crushing smaller accounts with his stake. It's possible that it is he that is the person directly intended to benefit from the downvote pool. After all, he's one of the original ninjaminers, a bully, and possesses immense stake. Meeting his needs might well be acceptable to the other substantial stakeholders that have undertaken to implement HF21.

Unless the HF can be quickly reversed if (when) the terrible consequences of the increased extraction of rewards starts crashing the userbase and plummeting the value of Steem, those consequences are likely going to be terminal IMHO, and I've seen comment that there is no intention of reversing HF21 from those that might could.

Accordingly, so long, and thanks for all the fish!

It has been determined that you are trash, therefore, you have received a negative vote.

PLEASE NOTE: If you engage with the trash above you also risk receiving a negative vote on your comment.

 5 years ago Reveal Comment

Downvoting has much of it's bad rap because of those that use it improperly.

Using them to flag opinions, criticism, and content representing alternative worldviews does NOT represent ideal use.

Using them to flag spam, plagiarism and various forms of token manipulation is their proper use and that would have great potential towards our economy.

That is only if we can get over the stigma that has come about from the improper use. We should also take actions against those that are misusing them.

Projects like @freezepeach is a step in the right direction but it is severely underpowered.

@steemflagrewards also has a small flag abuse @neutralizer that is employed against those that retaliate against abuse fighters buy it needs to be automated. </sub

Hey mate, thanks for the comment.

As mentioned in the other reply to your comment, what we are dealing with here is human nature.

You don't think people have been trying to educate folk to be a little more discretionary with how they judge (negatively) other people over the centuries?

This behaviour is ingrained in humans, its the competitive, law-of-the-jungle instinct, it is super-hardwired into our brainstems.

The idea of flagging for spam is ok... but how does it work out in reality?

"Using them to flag spam, plagiarism and various forms of token manipulation"

The problem is, how do we define it? Plagiarism is fairly easy to define and identify, although we could use with the coding to allow canonical links to allow syndication across platforms without affecting SEO and appearing to be plagiarised content.

Spam though? Is it just the frequency of content posting? HF20 and the RC-cost was meant to take care of that, and it crippled anyone below minnow status (majority of accounts). Has it actually worked? Has anyone run the numbers to see if spamming has reduced because of the HF20 changes?

I think taking photos of your dinner is spammy. I think Life Coaches who write advertorial to promote themselves is spammy. But do the creators of that content share my opinion? I guarantee they don't. I think there is a grey area, and it's that grey area that is of concern to me.

"We should also take actions against those that are misusing them."
How do we do this? And does creating a 'free' amount of flagging (downvotes that don't 'cost' your RC) help this or hinder it?

Feel free to continue the conversation in the palnet forum here

Your comment disregards that human nature is what it is, and your observation that human nature causes them to fly flags less than optimally does not support in any way that availing them of more flags will fix things.

It is going to make them worse, and dramatically so. Bernie is flagging here, and extorting everyone that sees his comment with the threat of retaliation if they engage with the flagged party. This is not news to you, I suspect, so you're not living up to your words here:

"We should also take actions against those that are misusing them."

No one is very interested in drawing flags from one of the largest stakeholders on Steem, and that's rational. Giving him free flags worth 25% of his VP is going to make that situation very much worse, not improve anything at all.

It has been determined that you are trash, therefore, you have received a negative vote.

PLEASE NOTE: If you engage with the trash above you also risk receiving a negative vote on your comment.

Congratulations @metametheus! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

You distributed more than 34000 upvotes. Your next target is to reach 35000 upvotes.

You can view your badges on your Steem Board and compare to others on the Steem Ranking
If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word STOP

To support your work, I also upvoted your post!

Do not miss the last post from @steemitboard:

The Steem community has lost an epic member! Farewell @woflhart!
SteemitBoard - Witness Update
Do not miss the coming Rocky Mountain Steem Meetup and get a new community badge!

You can upvote this notification to help all Steem users. Learn how here!

Hello!

This post has been manually curated, resteemed
and gifted with some virtually delicious cake
from the @helpiecake curation team!

Much love to you from all of us at @helpie!
Keep up the great work!


helpiecake

Manually curated by @vibesforlife.

I definitely agree with your opinion! A downvoting system is needed to ensure the great amount of value creation. Value creation is negatively affected by posts which themselves create no value. This doesn't mean someone's meme, joke, or even rant. If you don't think that meme's can offer value, then you don't realize the effect they have had on culture over the past 5 years. Downvoting is needed to punish those that seek to gain value without creating it themselves. Those who plagiarise, abuse the value rewarding system, or who's posts are solely of a toxic nature create no value to their community. In fact, these kind of post damage the value creation system on the whole network. If there exists too large a ratio of toxic posts that damage the value creation system, everyone on the network sees their own content devalued. If you want an example of this, then look no further than Gab. Gab technically has a downvoting system, but it is purely aesthetic in nature. At one point downvoting was removed cause a bunch of Alt-Right weenies didn't like their $#!7 being downvoted and kept whining about it to the Gab staff. However, the backlash from everyone else of having downvoting removed made them reimplement it, but as a purely visual system only. This system of non-punishment downvoting means that there is no quality bar that has to be passed, no value creation, for any post on the network. This is why Gab is so utterly toxic, in every sense of the word. Even Minds downvoting system isn't overall that punishing, meaning that the quality content on there tends to be lower than on Steem. It somehow effects how posts show up on trending, but that's about it for Minds, and it shows... It's how, at one point, the top 5 of the top ten trending topics involved the Jews, and not in a good way...

However, there is a flip side to this... A system which places too heavy a belief in downvoting risks causing the same overall damage to value creation that shitposts do. If downvoting is encouraged too frequently, or if it becomes too widespread across the network, then value creation itself is damaged. This is actually worse in some ways, as shitposting is more of a broad spectrum damage that requires a large amount to cause trouble. But downvoting is targeted, direct, and far more damaging on a local level. For most smaller creators, it would take but a couple of downvotes, or even one whale/witness with a bad attitude, to remove all value created by a post, not based on any content in the post. For example, every post I make gets down voted by @camillesteemer (yeah, I'm calling you out you little...) and now by a bot that account owns as well. If the new downvoting system is implemented, I will have to deal with them even more, as they will be emboldened to downvote more than ever.

Downvoting is important to the value creation of a decentralized, blockchain-based network. However, it has to be implemented in a way that doesn't encourage downvoting as an end in itself, but instead as a way to encourage better value creation. If more people, and especially the witnesses and whales, understood this concept better, Steem would be a far better place than it is today.

(Tagging @whatsup so she can read this as I think it might interest her)

Yeah.

I think the account you mentioned may be a bot... not sure. If it’s a bot, then there must be some kind of trigger for it to downvote.

The problem is, if that bot or account is downvoting based on a post bot meeting certain criteria... well, what is that criteria?

It would seem to me that there would be more value should the flag be accompanied by specific feedback on the reasoning behind it.

Like I just replied on someone else’s comment, a cybernetic system requires feedback. Up and/down votes are not sufficient feedback for the system.

Engagement is more than just a vote in any direction.

We need to bring the human element more.

Code doesn’t change human behaviour, humans do.

Posted using Partiko iOS

Congratulations! I just stopped by to say that your post has been selected as a daily Featured Post of my personal curation project! You can find the daily Featured Post HERE.
I upvoted your contribution and I put it on the list because to my mind your post is what I call a quality content!
I am @miti, a manual curator that shall make available all his Steem Power to authors deserving of support. Let's make STEEM great again!
Have a nice day and keep up the good work!

No, we don't need to know when someone doesn't like something... Steem would be so much smarter without the downvote/flag.

This:

"Steem would be so much smarter without the downvote/flag."

Yeah, the spectre of flagging hasn't really raised the bar around here so far... maybe that's the intention of the proposed changes though? I don't know.

I'd love to see a discussion happening on the palnet forum here, so come on over...

Interesting reading. Upvoted

I am a perfect opponent of punishment

Nothing has screwed up the Steemit platform more than flagging - from way back in 2016 some of us wanted it binned, and now it is being actively promoted as an answer - the answer to having too many bloggers maybe...

 5 years ago Reveal Comment
Loading...